The Calvinist Cafe forum (3)

Markus Leoninus wrote:

At the outset I will point out that the views I express here in response to this and all your other posts so far on this board are my own. They do not necessarily reflect the views of the owner/admin of the site, the views of his moderators, nor the views of other regular members like myself. I take full responsibility for my own statements.

That’s nice.

Now, if I am deemed out of line for taking you, Mr. Duncan, to task, then so be it. But I feel very strongly that people like yourself must be put in their place when they arrogantly pop up out of the blue, quite unprovoked, to condemn others on the basis of a cultish, self-promoting agenda. I therefore venture to say the following.

Now, if I am deemed out of line for turning over tables upon which the porcelain busts of Boettner, Sproul, Machen, and Calvin have been so painstakingly placed, then so be it.

The aforementioned Icons Of Calvinism are judged unregenerate on the basis of SCRIPTURE. “Markus Leoninus” makes the intellectually lazy, easy, and slanderous assertion of “cultish” and “self-promoting” because he cannot deal with the ACTUAL GROUND upon which our war against his idols are based.

In my opinion, quite frankly, one place you simply do not belong, Mr. Duncan, is on this website. You should just stay on your own website(s) and rant all you want, to your little heart’s content. You really ought to have the common courtesy to do that. Oh, wait. Common courtesy is not a virtue of the cultist, I’m afraid. But I’ll see if I can persuade you to split just the same.

The website my opinionated opponent refers to is The Calvinist Cafe. Said opponent rants all he wants and lacks the “common courtesy” to do some research and find out those characteristics that actually constitute “the cultist.”

One of the main characteristics of cults is that the cult leadership actively seeks to recruit and retain as many people as possible — or at least emotionally or psychologically vulnerable people. This in and of itself would disqualify us as a cult. We DO NOT recruit AT ALL. And if someone says he disagrees with us in essential doctrine, that person is not only FREE to go, but that person MUST go. So much for recruiting and retaining. We NEVER use deception techniques to “bring people in” or to “keep people.” We’re TOTALLY out front. And we NEVER EVER ask for money, we NEVER EVER tell people they need to move here to join our “group,” and we NEVER EVER say that we’re the only group that has the truth.

And don’t worry. No one from here is likely to waste any time invading your domains and shouting you down as heretical. They’ve simply got better things to do, “bigger fish to fry”, as the saying goes. But let me cut to the chase.

“No one from here is likely to waste any time invading” my domain (including Leoninus). But Leoninus IS likely to waste his time shouting me down as heretical from within the [safe] confines of his blasphemous tabernacle. While “they’ve” got “better things to do,” Leoninus certainly does not since he is wasting his time “frying up” such a small and insignificant fish.

You are neither Reformed, nor truly Calvinistic in any classical senses of the terms.

To adapt the observations of one writer:

This fact is certain. It cannot be disputed. This should be so obvious that one would have thought the apothegm of this Calvinist sage, “You are neither Reformed, nor truly Calvinistic in any classical senses of the terms,” would scarcely have established his claim to a sapient superiority. Or, in other (less sonorous) words: DUH.

You are not a friendly Arminian or non-Calvinist, like some of the other members here are.

Thank you for noticing. And like you seemed to be subtly hinting at above, I am not a “friendly Calvinist” either. This “friendliness” you have such an inordinate affinity for is the “friendliness” of those who say “Ye shall not surely die” (Genesis 3:4) though you walk after the figment of your own mind:

“They say still unto them that despise me, The LORD hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you” (Jeremiah 23:17).

I, on the other hand, speak peace to those who make their boast SOLELY in the cross of the Lord Jesus Christ. It is to those who “walk by this rule” that “peace and mercy” is to be spoken to (Galatians 6:16; cf. Galatians 6:14).

So, I ask the inevitable question: Why, exactly, did you come here, Mr. Duncan? Just what is your business here? To warn and rescue heretics? To speak the truth in love? HA! That’s certainly not the impression one gets while reading “Outside the Camp” or the articles at your linked, sister sites, which you have penned.

Having perceived that The Calvinist Cafe was wholly given to idolatry and theological hero worship, I began disputing with ignorantly devout, zealous, unwise persons who commend themselves by “measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves” (2 Corinthians 10:12; cf. Romans 10:1-4).

I think the answer to the question of why you ventured here is not at all far to seek. It seems abundantly clear to me, at least, that your only purpose for being here is to try and sow discord among brethren. It won’t work, of course, because the folks here are not as stupid or asinine as you seem to think.

It would be exceedingly superfluous of me to attempt to “sow discord” among brothers in Satan who do quite well at sowing discord of their own by bickering and fighting over doctrines (e.g., efficacious atonement, Godhood of God) they both deem to be non-essential or adiaphora.

I am preaching the true gospel of God’s promise to save His people conditioned SOLELY on the atoning blood and imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ. Christ’s EFFICACIOUS ATONEMENT is the VERY HEART, THE VERY LIFE-BLOOD of this gospel. NEITHER the tolerant Calvinists or the Arminians believe in the true gospel. These Calvinists and Arminians are God-haters who are committing spiritual fornication beneath the gangrenous tree of universal atonement (cf. “Gospel Atonement”).

But, hey, it’s what presumptuous, arrogant, pharasaical people like you do best; while pretending to be virtually the only people since the days of the apostles to actually know the truth and to thus be right with God. Everyone else, in your view, is a hellbound heretic.

See the article “What is a Pharisee?” in order to extricate yourself from the mire of your ignorance.

Every believer from the beginning of the world till now has believed the true gospel of salvation conditioned on the atoning blood and imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ alone. Since the end of the “Apostolic period” until now, a remnant from all succeeding generations have been and will be saved. God has not thrust away His people for whom Jesus Christ died. He has and will save ONLY those for whom Jesus Christ died and will cause them to believe His gospel (cf. Romans 11:1-6). As for those for whom Christ did NOT die (“hell-bound heretics”) God will cause them to believe (among other things) such lies as universal atonement that He may justly punish them forever.

Yes, I’ve actually been reading some of the swill that swells your “Outside the Camp” cesspool of condemnatory tirades against everybody outside your own little insignificant circle. And to be perfectly honest, I’d laugh at that stuff were it not for the fact that I find it to be so pathetic. In the final analysis it’s really not amusing at all.

So “insignificant” is our little circle that Markus Leoninus felt compelled to unload his own babbling (or bubbling) “cesspool of condemnatory tirades” into its center.

Virtually every page of the main site, and the linked pages that bear your name and rants, along with those of your associate, Marc Carpenter, is filled with vitriolic venom against anyone and everyone who does not think and believe as you two do.

Our (alleged) “vitriolic venom” is based on the Bible — the Hammer of God’s Word. What is all Leoninus’s ranting, raving, and spewing of venom and vitriol based upon? Methinks it’s “just his feelings.”

You have taken it upon yourselves to pronounce judgment against men far your superiors, both in terms of theological acumen and evangelical success via their ministries; to include Calvin, Owen, Bunyan, Whitefield, Toplady, Ryle, Spurgeon, Pink, Lloyd-Jones, and a host of others, who quite simply put you and Mr. Carpenter to utter and complete shame in every respect. You two are sad, man. Just really, really sad.

Right — these men of a theologically sharp and aquiline eye had, “via their ministries,” FAR MORE “evangelical success” than the prophet Jeremiah. And not only Jeremiah but Jesus Christ Himself. Compare the chaste preaching and evangelism of Jesus Christ in John chapters 6 & 10 with the promiscuous false-christ-hawking of a George Whitefield. That comparison should prove instructive. As for those whom you’ve taken it upon yourself to judge as possessing “theological acumen,” 1 Corinthians 1:19-20 shuts your jabbering mouth with clarity and force.

To a considerable degree I think you are about as confused as termites in a Major League baseball bat. You pride yourselves in being persons who trust Christ and Christ alone for your salvation. In reality, you are trusting in your own beliefs for your salvation. You are trusting in the gospel according to Chris Duncan and Marc Carpenter.

Paul had written:

” …so that even as it has been written, He that glories, let him glory in the Lord” (1 Corinthians 1:31).

It must be (Leoninus said so) that since we, Jeremiah, and Paul glory solely in the Lord, then it follows that we are trusting in our own belief that we glory solely in the Lord for our salvation, rather than glorying solely in the Lord Himself for our salvation. Uh, okay Mr. Markus Leononsequitur.

Like all cultists, you are full of yourselves. Thus out of the abundance of your confused, elitist, self-absorbed, self-promoting, jealous, spiteful hearts, your mouths speak against everybody else. And I could not care less whether, in your estimation or judgment, I’m a lost heretic for not believing the gospel according to Duncan and Carpenter. After all, I will stand before God Himself, not a pair of cultic elitists. See if you can find it within yourself to do the right thing, Mr. Duncan, and just go back to your own website Leave this one alone. You can’t carry out your agenda here anyway.

I wonder if any reading this verbose post will conclude that Markus Leoninus is a HYPOCRITICAL full-of-himself-cultist-confused-elitist-self-absorbed-self-promoting-jealous-spiteful-abusive BAG OF WIND.

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